tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post492294870842279322..comments2023-06-05T07:33:16.696-07:00Comments on The China Beat: It's Just History: Patriotic Education in the PRCThe China Beathttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17042877198563453117noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-24927525343927753102009-05-24T03:07:26.968-07:002009-05-24T03:07:26.968-07:00http://www.bjreview.com.cn/nation/txt/2009-05/24/c...http://www.bjreview.com.cn/nation/txt/2009-05/24/content_197175.htm<br /><br />According to the link above, the exhibition seems to have made a deep impact on this film director.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-79477749062543880712009-04-29T00:46:00.000-07:002009-04-29T00:46:00.000-07:00Prof. Lovell,
I thought this was a great article ...Prof. Lovell,<br /><br />I thought this was a great article and fun. Though it brought to mind an issue that haunts me, as I'm sure it may have haunted you while researching this issue.<br /><br />Often, when asking strangers in China questions of significance about politics, identity, nationalism, ect., I worry about the politics of my own identity as a foreigner who speaks Chinese (I think it's safe to assume your conversations were in Chinese although appearing in English in this piece.). I always harbor an insecurity of whether or not the response they are giving me is somehow negotiated by the fact of my nationality written on my face as they look into my eyes to respond. I think when it comes to issues of "National Shame" that strangers may shy away from such controversial issues in order to avoid offending me - granted this would demonstrate that they care enough about my feelings that they wouldn't be entirely anti-foreign; however, were it a Chinese or their own private thoughts their response may be mediated differently.<br /><br />I'm not writing to criticize the objectivity of the response, on the contrary, I feel exactly the same (except maybe the comment of not trusting what Chinese people say and money). I just mean to ask how do you see this issue of the politics of your identity as foreign influencing respondents in China? Thanks.<br /><br />Chris Heselton<br /><br />PS. To Kaiser Kuo - Are you the same Kaiser Kuo formerly from the rock band Tangchao? If so, you're awesome. I'm a big fan!Christopher Heseltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521905038801041693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-8106674079512368352009-04-25T11:33:00.000-07:002009-04-25T11:33:00.000-07:00Dear Jonathan: By "public opinion", I mean opinion...Dear Jonathan: By "public opinion", I mean opinion that external observers can say, with some degree of confidence, is genuinely held by a broad swathe of the populace. The media in China are still heavily controlled by the state, and it is hard to judge the extent to which views generated by these media (in which I include textbooks and public history, such as museums) are in reality enthusiastically endorsed, or passively accepted, or privately criticised. (For further comments on this, see a post by Geremie Barme, http://thechinabeat.blogspot.com/2008/05/torching-relay.html.) And then again, it seems very difficult to make any generalisations about opinion on the less-regulated internet, where unrepresentatively loud voices can shout their views. But I'd be very interested in any suggestions about how to make an accurate gauge of public opinion in China.Julia Lovellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-58923100964203034132009-04-24T20:03:00.000-07:002009-04-24T20:03:00.000-07:00A very entertaining and enlightening read. Thank y...A very entertaining and enlightening read. Thank you.<br /><br />-cddurham.cwhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04860025851316478253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-40466149625261237322009-04-24T12:30:00.000-07:002009-04-24T12:30:00.000-07:00Could Ms Lovell expand a bit on her comment that "...Could Ms Lovell expand a bit on her comment that "The safest conclusion to draw is that there is still no such thing as public opinion in China today." What does she mean exactly by public opinion, and how can she prove it does not exist??Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16181653920050308329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-77871283982377191462009-04-24T02:19:00.000-07:002009-04-24T02:19:00.000-07:00(NB: ‘JL’ above is not me.) Thank you for all thes...(NB: ‘JL’ above is not me.) Thank you for all these interesting comments. To Yu Zhou and others: I completely accept that the “century of humiliation” theme in contemporary China often takes a self-critical, self-loathing direction. Whenever I’ve asked Chinese acquaintances about the Opium War, pretty soon they come up with the thoroughly Social Darwinist sentiment “the backward will take a beating” (luohou jiu yao ai da). Sadly, there wasn’t room to talk about that question in the piece. And naturally, my visits to these sites were not a controlled, political-science survey – I didn’t think that my brief conversations would reveal the complexity of my interlocutors’ views. What I was trying to convey, however, was that the atmosphere at and around the Sea Battle museum (on which my presence as a foreigner would have had no effect; no-one was taking much notice of me) was that of a casual day out at the seaside, not of solemn contemplation of the national tragedy inflicted by foreign gunboats. <br /><br />Of course, I completely accept the fact that Western powers committed iniquities in China in the past. I think my main quibble with the “national humiliation” educational project is, as I pointed out early in the piece, the way in which it stresses the effects of foreign aggression at the expense of acts of civil, internal violence and oppression carried out by, for instance, the CCP. One example of this is a big exhibition (accompanied by TV series and spin-off book) mounted at the Military Museum in Beijing in winter 2007, “The Road to Revival” (Fuxing zhi lu), narrating China’s rise from the catastrophes of the 19th century (starting with the Opium War) to the present day. The exhibition presented extensive materials on the Opium War, the Unequal Treaties etc. but, as I recall, illustrated the Cultural Revolution decade pretty much exclusively with a large artists’ reconstruction of China’s first explosion of the atom bomb. At the end of the exhibition, the curators had left exercise books for visitors to recall their impressions: I glanced through briefly and found that the historical biases of the exhibition (designed to inculcate gratitude to the CCP) had left a fairly effective imprint on the comments, which straightforwardly stressed anger at the way China was treated in the past, and pride and joy at what it had achieved now. Again, I’m not claiming this to be a rigorous survey; but it was something I observed.<br /> <br />A separate concern that I have heard some China-watchers raise about the importance of national humiliation to Communist political culture beginning with Mao is that, theoretically at least, it does legitimate violence against those who have insulted China in the past. The idea that “the backward will be beaten” is, of course, far from unique to modern Chinese thought; it’s very important to Russian nationalism as well, from the late 19th century onwards. The locus classicus of this, perhaps, is Stalin’s 1931 speech (to industrial managers) which, I think, brings out the mixed messages of Social Darwinist self-disgust: “You are backward, you are weak—therefore you are wrong; hence, you can be beaten and enslaved. You are mighty—therefore you are right; hence, we must be wary of you.” I’m absolutely not saying that this is how the “century of humiliation” is interpreted in China today (most people I’ve talked to draw Yu Zhou’s self-critical interpretation), but it is something that is open to more than one interpretation.Julia Lovellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-90634710214569372312009-04-24T00:23:00.000-07:002009-04-24T00:23:00.000-07:00I would agree with Ms.Lovell to a great extent. Th...I would agree with Ms.Lovell to a great extent. The communist party has been barraging Tibetan society at different levels in Tibet with "Patriotic education" for more than 50 years now. Was it really effective? The 2008 uprising all across Tibetan clearly show that it was not.<br /><br />And yet the nationalism surrounding the Olympics, I believe was more orchrestrated then being a natural gush of emotions among many chinese across the globe.<br /><br />There were cases, especially in San francisco where we heard that many chinese students were paid 300 $ by the embassy itself to come to the protest..Rinchenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11440709903696539554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-38741103724462294122009-04-23T23:57:00.000-07:002009-04-23T23:57:00.000-07:00Ms. Lovell, I think you also overlook a nefarious ...Ms. Lovell, I think you also overlook a nefarious aspect of patriotic education combined with the general closed nature of education within the PRC. Offer people one version of history, and deny them others, and while they may not fully accept your point of view in entirity, they will have a very stunted view of History (big H) as a whole. <br /><br />I don't doubt that most of the attendees of these museums you went to don't adopt the same rhetoric of victimisation in everyday life. This does not mean that certain historical assumptions are not accepted and that they don't affect the outlook of the general population when it comes to current affairs. <br /><br />While you don't say this, your post may give some readers the impression that most Chinese don't really care about or believe patriotic education. The vague comments about China's humiliations from the shopkeeper below the bell seem to indicate that patriotic education has had a fundamental impact. And, of course, it must be mentioned that the people who went to these museums did go there for a purpose. Sometimes the picturesque scenery is enough to draw the crowds, but something tells me that, regarding many Chinese, the willingness to pay to go to an "unequal treaty" museum, for example, indicates a tacit acceptance of the history (small h) that that museum recounts, even if they aren't prepared to accept the bombastic terminology of the museum exhibits.<br /><br />Finally, as some here have indicated, and you have hinted at in your post, Chinese people generally tell people they don't know very well what they think will make their listeners happy. You have great skin! You are so young! I like British people! Britain is so advanced! Britain humiliated China? All that is in the past!<br /><br />They may not dislike you, but they won't tell you what they are really thinking.Tommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13552370490869601403noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-51171120219123986662009-04-23T17:24:00.000-07:002009-04-23T17:24:00.000-07:001) People who feel strongly about a subject and ac...1) People who feel strongly about a subject and act upon it, are usually young people (mainly university students). Hence, interviewing taxi driver, home-makers, senior citizens will not give you the real extent of the issue. <br /><br />2) Too many studies on Chinese reaction to last year's incidents, and not much on the claims of Chinese on Western media bias. I hope to see more on the validity of the latter.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-53874481574570054652009-04-23T15:24:00.000-07:002009-04-23T15:24:00.000-07:00I enjoyed the post, and I think it's a fact that e...I enjoyed the post, and I think it's a fact that extremist nationalism in China is not as widespread as it appears. Nonetheless, I echo anonymous' observations: most Chinese won't disclose their harshest political views of the West to a Caucasian British person who accosts them randomly in public places; nor do the lukewarm and evasive responses of above mentioned accosted Chinese folks constitute credible evidence to question the more documented phenomenon of fenqing nationalism. <br /><br />Granted, Professor Lovell's point was not to present a detailed, scientific study to make her point, just a few entertaining anecdotes. I think she succeeded in this capacity.Porfiriyhttp://www.thenewdominion.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-61603921942085091482009-04-23T13:30:00.000-07:002009-04-23T13:30:00.000-07:00Why is "China is unhappy" a bestseller in China? C...Why is "China is unhappy" a bestseller in China? Chinese dont say what they think to stranger laowais on the street.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-8976661859046940582009-04-23T09:20:00.000-07:002009-04-23T09:20:00.000-07:00I disagree that patriotic education is simply "whi...I disagree that patriotic education is simply "white noise". All these museums emphasis the failure of China. This instills a sense of urgency among young people to never again allow this to happen. Whether or not this works in producing nationalist sentiments I feel is a byproduct of a more important goal, which is to make sure people think not just about themselves but the country as a whole. So when they embark on their career/life they have a dual objective of not just personal glory but also through their actions help the country.LJKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-18300420570980441522009-04-23T08:45:00.000-07:002009-04-23T08:45:00.000-07:00Talking about memorials, I was living in 101 middl...Talking about memorials, I was living in 101 middle school about 11 years ago. If you are not aware, that school is next to yuanmingyuan. Anyway, for most of the year the western side of YMY was closed. Why? Well, they were busy bringing in fake ruins to place around the northern side of the lake. Yes, there are real ruins in the 'park' but the ones around the 'west' lake are not so authenic. I guess they were just adding some color to history.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-87129411137508623392009-04-23T06:48:00.000-07:002009-04-23T06:48:00.000-07:00A country of 1.2 billion will have its fair share ...A country of 1.2 billion will have its fair share of extremist nutjobs. If you see those who made death threats to foreign journalists as comprable to the white-power nationalists in Western countries, rather than the representatives of "the Chinese people" whom they may pretend to be, the country looks like a much saner place. <br /><br />Yu Zhou: Perhaps Westerners should learn more about their colonial past. Perhaps Chinese fenqing should try looking at their own nation as an imperialistic power in its own right, as well as a victim of imperialism. But I think most people in the world just don't care that much about history, no matter how much geeks like us might wish they did.JLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-65688314631847653792009-04-22T23:21:00.000-07:002009-04-22T23:21:00.000-07:00Yu Zhou, I don't think your characterization of Ms...Yu Zhou, I don't think your characterization of Ms. Lovell's argument is accurate. It may not seem like it unless you read down to the end, but in fact what she's arguing is that "Patriotic Education" is largely ignored, like so much white noise, and that--just as you say--they're full of contempt for propaganda. If anything, her casting doubt on the "Patriotic Education as cause for strident nationalism" theory makes it other explanations, including yours, much more plausible.kaiserkuohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14138469500850064698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-28866933551388945382009-04-22T20:47:00.000-07:002009-04-22T20:47:00.000-07:00Unfortunately, I don't think that the Fenqing stor...Unfortunately, I don't think that the Fenqing story is that simple. you made it sound like these young people had no brain and simply took the government patriatic education as truth. If you manage to talk to them, it should be obvious that they are not that naive. They are full of contempt for China's propaganda and many are not unaware about the consequences of Great leap forward and Cultural revolution. <br /><br />In addition, China's century of humiliation was not made up. The anti-western sentiment had a historical base (read the book English lesson by Hevia). I think that unfortunatly British and most western countries had closed the books of the imperial period in China too quickly without understanding the consequences on the colonialized mass, not just in China but also else where. <br /> Most Chinese saw that period as western powers took advantage of a weak China and the response should be to self-strengthening rather than being angry or hate. I think that you have already found this out by visiting the tourist sites. The memory of humiliation while burried most time, is not erased or gone. You will find such sentiment among the most sophsticated and most cosmopolitan Chinese if you look deeply. I think that it would be good for the westerners to acknowledge and respect such a sense of history from a people that had felt so defeated and helpless for so long and understand that there will be times after times, burst of anger. it is perfectly normal for a country like China. But also understand that through most part of Chinese recent history, the anger had not led to hate, but self-motivation. If most westerners can do that, the scare will eventually heal. <br /><br />Yu Zhou, Vassar CollegeUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02850653536829614905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-23649421176991053532009-04-22T17:55:00.000-07:002009-04-22T17:55:00.000-07:00Bravo! A marvelously entertaining post, with concl...Bravo! A marvelously entertaining post, with conclusions that square well with my own experiences living in Beijing for the last 13 years now. The strident cyber-nationalists may reach now and again into half-remembered 'facts' from their Patriotic Education when trying to stitch an argument together, but the animating force for the nationalist 愤青 is that surfeit of spleen and that juvenile thrill that pimply 22-year-olds of risk- and accountability-free, anonymous verbal combat. Sure, it spills over now and again into "real life," but face-to-face conversations (as you've noticed) tend to be a whole lot more civil, and online conversations about 国家大事 among Chinese -- when the Westerners aren't prowling around on the BBS -- tend to encompass quite a large range of viewpoints.kaiserkuohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14138469500850064698noreply@blogger.com