tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post6577391642173998706..comments2023-06-05T07:33:16.696-07:00Comments on The China Beat: China: Democracy, or Confucianism?The China Beathttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17042877198563453117noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-34481528622203853162009-05-29T22:58:26.611-07:002009-05-29T22:58:26.611-07:00The issue should not be Confucianism vs. Democracy...The issue should not be Confucianism vs. Democracy. Like how monarchy was the basis of ancient political system, democracy (popular legitimacy) is the basis of modern political system. I believe the Chinese government acknowledges that the Chinese political system needs reform to a more democratic government. The big issue and one debated in the academics is what type of democratic government is most appropriate for East Asian societies like China. Many in Asia have argued that the so called “liberal democracy” championed by the West is not the only form of democracy. An evolving model sometimes labeled as “social democracy” or “Confucian democracy” might be more suitable for East Asian culture. The general difference is that the individual sits at the core of “liberal democracy” while the society is the centerpiece of the so called “Confucian democracy”. Given the importance of harmony to many East Asian culture, the latter might be more suitable. Currently, Singapore is seen as the leading practitioner of the so called “Confucian democracy” while Taiwan and S. Korea have adopted the more Western style “liberal democracy”. Japan falls somewhere in between the two systems. Some have argued that Taiwan and S. Korea have become politically “chaotic” and less efficient with “liberal democracy”. While Singapore retains a strong track record of efficiency, clean governance, and accountability to go along with relatively opened civil liberty and harmony. On the other hand, some argue Singapore is too restrictive and would not work for a country as large as China. The so called “Confucian democracy” is still an evolving concept. Ultimately, the Chinese as well as East Asians have to discover a system that suits them best.bigben_usanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-36230293511803068472009-04-17T11:21:00.000-07:002009-04-17T11:21:00.000-07:00Thanks for posting stuff like this. Posts like th...Thanks for posting stuff like this. Posts like this that help bridge the language and worldview distance between China and "外国" are very helpful!<br /><br />Can you explain this a bit more? I don't understand the connection: <EM>"However, his attempts [to join a church in Shenzhen] would not come to fruition as he felt 'the entire Chinese culture dragging my leg.'"</EM>Joelhttp://chinahopelive.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-40950661552281745382009-01-01T21:49:00.000-08:002009-01-01T21:49:00.000-08:00Please ask Jiang Qing (蒋庆) to read post-science"ht...Please ask Jiang Qing (蒋庆) to read post-science"<BR/>http://www.post-science.com<BR/>and contact me:<BR/>cy88lee@yahoo.com<BR/>Thank you.<BR/>Best regards,<BR/>CY Leepost-sciencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01484306819103842669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-1029008325472924882008-06-16T05:29:00.000-07:002008-06-16T05:29:00.000-07:00Thanks to all who commented. I appreciate your int...Thanks to all who commented. I appreciate your interest in the subject and I've also linked to one of the criticizers from my blog http://www.insideoutchina.com. <BR/><BR/>A reader comment on my blog yesterday asks what the core documents of Political Confucianism are. That is a good question, and it might help to note a short answer here as well. Jiang Qing's book cites mostly the <I>Spring and Autumn Annals</I> by Confucius, and <I>Gongyang Commentary</I> compiled by Dong Zhongshu (179-104 BC). On the latter Jiang Qing has another book titled <I>Introduciton to Gongyang Commentary</I>.<BR/><BR/>Another reader wrote me to say "I would have liked to read a lot more about Jiang Qing's ideas about Confucianism - especially related to the other philosophies and religions he had studied. There are really only three paragraphs about his ideas and, at least for me, that is not enough to learn much." <BR/><BR/>I understand the frustration; unfortunately at the moment translation is not something I have time to do. My posting was intended as an introduction to '抛砖引玉' or "throw out a brick in order to lure jade." If anyone is interested in translating <I>Political Science</I>, I can probably help to connect him/her with Jiang Qing or locate a copy of the book. <BR/><BR/>The book does include an English translation for its table of content, so I might hand-copy and post that on my blog if it helps.Xujunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05534267282303815433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-6776545273810103692008-06-15T19:38:00.000-07:002008-06-15T19:38:00.000-07:00If democracy is so unsuited to China, what to make...If democracy is so unsuited to China, what to make of the stable, prosperous democracies in the Confucian societies of Taiwan and South Korea? Both these countries seem to have proven the author's assertion that China must use a system based on Chinese culture wrong.Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08654770225487196179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-76404204755818447092008-06-10T08:14:00.000-07:002008-06-10T08:14:00.000-07:00Readers who found this post interesting might like...Readers who found this post interesting might like to check out the interview with the author on the Peking Duck site: http://www.pekingduck.org/2008/06/apologies-forthcoming-an-interview-with-xujun-eberlein/Jeff Wasserstromhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16872480645580646136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-13410354201074561272008-06-08T11:49:00.000-07:002008-06-08T11:49:00.000-07:00The first of this year's BBC Reith lectures, from ...The first of this year's BBC Reith lectures, from ultimate sinologist wind-bag Jonathan Spence also covered the same ground. <BR/><BR/>Some generic protests - 1) American is not the same as western, why do both Chinese and US scholars continue to talk as if the world had only two countries in it? 2) Democracy is a Greek invention (in as much as anyone invented it), a country which has been part of eastern empires much longer than it has been independent - why do people talk about democracy as if it was something which belongs to the west?<BR/><BR/>Jiang Qing and Johnathan Spence both make the same mistake - by thinking of Confucianism and democracy as mutually exclusive. It is a set of rules with no real over-arching and all-encompassing structure (references to 'heaven' do not constitute a centre). Confucianism is a political system in the same way that Taoism is a religion - a Taoist can worship alongside Budhists, and a Confucianist can work inside a democracy. Confucianism and democracy can be made to be compatible.<BR/><BR/>Instead, the system he sets out is a very narrow form of theocratic democracy similar to that currently practiced in Iran - with an added 'House of Lords' on the old British model to boot. This would be a huge leap backwards for China, even compared to the current crypto-fascist 'communism' currently practiced today. <BR/><BR/>To be honest, I see the uprise in Confucianism today to be similar to the renewal of interest in the Russian Orthodox church in the Putin era - an attempt to legitimise authoritarian rule by grasping at national symbols. I doubt it will amount to much in the long term.Gilman Grundyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06607416440240634159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-74001765506187995402008-06-06T21:06:00.000-07:002008-06-06T21:06:00.000-07:00Based on a similar cultural/political legitimacy a...Based on a similar cultural/political legitimacy argument Beida Political Science scholar Pan Wei recently wrote "Toward a Consultative Rule of Law Regime in China", Journal of Contemporary China, 1 January 2003, vol. 12, no. 34, pp. 3-43(41)Mudheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08967206086280968225noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-9972141062326750442008-06-05T21:52:00.000-07:002008-06-05T21:52:00.000-07:00Contrary to what this author thinks, the West does...Contrary to what this author thinks, the West does not have a tradition of democracy. Except for a few experiments with it, the history of the West is pretty much the history of lords and serfs. We eventually democratized because we (meaning the serfs in coalition with merchants) got tired of being told what to do by leaders we hadn't selected. How is China any different?<BR/><BR/>Confucianism is in; Confucianism is out. No, it's back in again... Who cares?!!<BR/><BR/>Some day, whether it be later this year or later this century, Chinese serfs and merchants will finally decide they've had enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-80025133775928153932008-06-05T10:15:00.000-07:002008-06-05T10:15:00.000-07:00Hmm. Haven't read this book, so it's a bit prematu...Hmm. Haven't read this book, so it's a bit premature to criticise. But I'd like to say this: could those who seek to criticise our "westernized" democracy actually do a little to understand it first? Jiang Qing comes up with this blinding moment of brilliance: the decisions of a democracy "can be self serving for a particular majority's interest."<BR/><BR/>No shit, Sherlock. I mean, he's right, but that's exactly why democratic countries spend so much energy tying themselves up in unbreakable legal bonds and inventing human rights. Because, duh, we know! Tyranny of the majority is a well-understood and deeply researched problem. Hence all those checks and balances in the US constitution, bicameral legislatures, rights of appeal to higher bodies. I'd hesitate to say we've solved the problem, but we've done some hardcore thinking about it.<BR/><BR/>Jiang Qing, bless 'im, apparently still feels ready to just ditch the concept though, and go for some nice quangos.<BR/><BR/>I apologise if my tone here is a little strident, but the arguments described in this review do not make me feel inclined to give Jiang or Confucianism as a whole much academic respect.chinaphilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14572591745611690731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-14118419328203960992008-06-05T10:01:00.001-07:002008-06-05T10:01:00.001-07:00China's leaders need to finally realise that the p...China's leaders need to finally realise that the problem is not and never has been with the political culture of its people, but with the transition of power between leaders and the lack of institutional checks and balances and other safeguards. While Confucianism will serve to guide people's ethics, it will not solve the practical problem of transferring power and legitimacy. At worst it will only serve to mask issues of factionalism that have always plagued Chinese politics down the centuries and seems to be making a comeback within the CCP. Because of its geographical and demographical size, China needs democracy at the very least at the local level to confer not only legitimacy, but also checks and balances. As for at the national level, that is something they will have to evolve or work it out for themselves.OThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10971811023880918990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-55352934911736259802008-06-05T09:37:00.000-07:002008-06-05T09:37:00.000-07:00Is the distinction between a confucian system that...Is the distinction between a confucian system that is held to be tri-legitimate and a "western" that is "uni-legitimate" valid? Taking the US system, there exists the separation of powers between the executive, legislative and judiciary. Why does this represent tri-legitimacy? The legislative is directly elected, the executive is elected through the president, who then makes a series of political appointments. Finally, the judiciary is done through appointment. How does selection mechanisms differ substantively from the proposed Confucian system, in which nothing is elaborated over those who have the power to make appointments and the criteria used in making them?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-3995172083241042562008-06-05T08:46:00.000-07:002008-06-05T08:46:00.000-07:00Lame article. What exactly would Political Confuci...Lame article. What exactly would Political Confucianism look like? How would it work? Would it mean reinstating the imperial examination system? The article answers none of these questions.<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that China is as preoccupied with achieving equivalency with the West as it ever has been. After 150 years, they are still trying to answer the question, "How can we be both modern and Chinese?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-43983447261551436212008-06-05T07:53:00.000-07:002008-06-05T07:53:00.000-07:00"communist regime"Great, and how about american re..."communist regime"<BR/>Great, and how about american republic regime?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-82303883961915483712008-06-04T09:54:00.000-07:002008-06-04T09:54:00.000-07:00" The good thing about Confucianism is it makes As..." The good thing about Confucianism is it makes Asian people willing to suffer pain..." - Hong Kong tycoon Ronnie Chan, FinanceAsia magazine (2002)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com