tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post9102972341459984338..comments2023-06-05T07:33:16.696-07:00Comments on The China Beat: Reith Lectures: English LessonsThe China Beathttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17042877198563453117noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-72177011708037142952008-06-23T08:11:00.000-07:002008-06-23T08:11:00.000-07:00Why should "modern" begin with contact with "the W...Why should "modern" begin with contact with "the West"? The West, or more precisely Western Europe, is only part of the world. <BR/><BR/>In some contexts it makes sense to start "modern" China with the Song, when the national monetized market economy participated in international trade.<BR/><BR/>Another good place to start would be in the 16th century, when silver from the New World circulated globally and built up the international networks. <BR/><BR/>Ken Pomeranz and many others, have shown that global economic changes provided the framework in which the political changes worked. The Opium Wars were tremendously significant, but not in marking "modern."CW Hayfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12126565074769322360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-22114812838172956592008-06-22T10:28:00.000-07:002008-06-22T10:28:00.000-07:00What if we started modern Chinese history with the...What if we started modern Chinese history with the localized response (a la Philip Kuhn's Rebellion and Its Enemies) to the Taiping Rebellion? There is a strong argument to be made that the elite-run military forces that Kuhn describes there laid the foundation for a new kind of elite activity that then impacted policy formulation and implementation well into the Republic. <BR/><BR/>There is interesting new research (by a colleague of mine at UCI) that seeks to contextualize interaction with the West into earlier Qing responses to other challenges like piracy and the White Lotus Rebellion (basically arguing that the way they dealt with the West 30/40 years later was roughly similar)--in that picture, the interactions with the West in the nineteenth century are much less of a break than is the elite response to the Taiping.Kate Merkel-Hesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01181945458036731739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-88762928657269426062008-06-19T13:45:00.000-07:002008-06-19T13:45:00.000-07:00While I agree that locating the starting point of ...While I agree that locating the starting point of modern Chinese history at a time of national "humiliation" is problematic and worthy of reconsideration, I don't believe the choice to do so is necessarily "self-defeating." Let's not ignore the political efficacy of positioning one's country, party or interest group as downtrodden and under attack. Getting folks to unite against a common threat-- real, perceived, present or historical-- continues to be a great tactic for generating unity and stifling dissent. <BR/><BR/>In this sense, it's perhaps easy to see why those writing Chinese history for, say, Chinese textbooks, would continue to employ this framework. But what about other historians, particularly those outside of China? If Chinese modern history didn't begin with the Opium Wars, then when did it begin? Is there some other moment in Chinese or Asian history-- some radical revolution in the vein of the European Enlightenment-- that signaled a self-propelled paradigm shift that ushered in a local modernity (not contingent on encounters with the West)? <BR/><BR/>I haven't yet listened to any of Spence's lectures in this series, but I look forward to doing so.argonoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230441983267091808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4050554817776641945.post-30379790800635220392008-06-18T10:12:00.000-07:002008-06-18T10:12:00.000-07:00"the Opium War has been used in countless publicat..."the Opium War has been used in countless publications to define the beginning of modern Chinese history, and I find it very self-defeating to choose to study your own modern history based upon a period of humiliation and failure..."<BR/><BR/>Interesting. If you start with a humiliating moment, it's called self-defeating, but if you start with a proud moment, it would be called self-congratulatory. <BR/><BR/>Anyway, what other event better defines the begining of the modern history of China than the Opium War? The war does simbolize the coming of the foreign powers/culture etc., and is indeed a watershed event, whether it's humiliation or not.Anonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08846939137265040043noreply@blogger.com